Legislators Married To Lobbyists Are Self Policing Potential Conflicts

(Source: MIRS.news, Published 06/27/2025) Four state legislators reported a personal financial disclosure statements this month that they are married to lobbyists, a dynamic that - in Michigan, anyway – counts on the legislators themselves to avoid any conflict of interest landmines.

Under Michigan's lobbying law, legislators married to lobbyists don't have to report the gifts or meals they exchange between the two of them. House rules allow for members to abstain from voting on bills or amendments due to conflicts of interest, but the rules leave it up to the lawmakers to determine what those might be.

Transparency is important in cases like this, said Alma Wheeler Smith, a former legislator who now chairs the Michigan Campaign Finance Network (MCFN). The public may want additional guardrails to prevent unscrupulous activity, but there's no enforceable rule or law you can create to stop or disclose “pillow talk” between couples, and it's up to the lawmakers themselves to police their own activity.

“I can't imagine that these couples don't have conversations that you might have with your spouse after work," Smith said. “We have to rely on our legislators to be ethical enough to recuse themselves when their vote could have beneficial consequences for his or her spouse, at least inform the chamber of the potential conflict.”

The issue came up in 2023 when Rep. Phil Skaggs (D-Grand Rapids) sponsored legislation that would change authority over permitting of wind and solar facilities at a time when his wife, Kate Skaggs's multi-client lobbying firm, WinMatt, had a solar company as a client. Skaggs said at the time that he and his wife kept and still keep a “strict firewall” between her work as a lobbyist and his job as a legislator, and that continues today.

He said the two are among the most transparent couples in the state Capitol and had no issue making that point when talking with MIRS.

“My wife got me an electric edger and a leaf blower for Christmas,” said Rep. Phil Skaggs (D-Grand Rapids), whose wife, Kate, works for the multi-client WinMatt Group, when asked about gifts he's receiving from her.

The rules of engagement around legislative-lobbyist marriages are somewhat new ground because they didn't happen until recently.

While it was difficult to track 20 years ago when Smith and her fellow MCFN board member and Senator, Joe Schwarz, served, Smith and Schwarz struggled to think of any of their colleagues who were married to a lobbyist.

Told there were four such couples in Lansing now, Smith said, “I’m sure that’s four more than we had when I was in office.”

The authors of a 2007 Washington State University Law Journal report called lawmakers marrying lobbyists a “blossoming phenomenon." The report included a quote from former Public Citizen's Congress Watch director Frank Clemente, who said, “How can a member of Congress possibly share a bed and a bank account with a member of a persuasion industry without a life laced by conflicts of interest?”

Following a similar train of thought was Schwarz who added, “Having a spouse as a lobbyist from the same state and same jurisdiction is not very smart, bordering on dumb. You're opening yourself up to inquires and suspicions. But, I suppose, this is a different era. This is not something I can imagine happening in my generation. The unwritten rules are different.”

Former legislator Jim Townsend, now the director of the Levin Center for Oversight and Democracy, said lobbying is a First Amendment-protected activity and there are no laws or rules on whom anyone can or can't marry. The only remedy in this case is disclosure, and the more, the better.

The issue at hand may be lobbyist spouses, but in other states with part-time legislatures, the issue is what the legislator does for work when not serving in the state capitol.

Are they the chair of Insurance Committee while serving as a CEO of an insurance company? It's good to have expertise in a subject area, but “members need to be careful that they're not crossing a line and benefitting themselves by voting a certain way.”

And what about family members? Fathers, mothers, in-laws? Like spouses, they can have influence over what a legislator does, too. That's a point made by Sen. Sylvia Santana (D-Detroit), whose husband, Harvey Santana, is a registered lobbyist as the Michigan State Director for the Alliance for Safety and Justice.

Plenty of lawmakers are married to people who are passionate about issues. They may not be registered lobbyists, but they want specific outcomes on specific issues, she said. Family members of legislators may also work around the Capitol. Again, they may not be sharing a home with someone, but they can have influence, too.

It's good to know about possible conflicts, she concurred, but her attitude is that she keeps her work separate from what Harvey does in the name of good governance.

“My husband doesn't lobby me on anything,” she said. “He's not even allowed in my office.”

Rep. Pat Outman (R-Six Lakes), whose wife, Autumn Outman, has been a lobbyist since 2017 and now works as the lobbyist for advocacy and government relations at Trinity Health, shared similar sentiments.

“I pretty much completely separate myself from the legislative process when it comes to healthcare-related items, which is pretty easy since my focus is primarily on transportation, tax policy and regulatory issues,” he said.

He added that the House Republican organization is mindful of any potential conflicts of interest and will flag items he might miss.

“So far, we haven't had any conflicts arise, but if one ever did, I'd recuse myself without hesitation.”

The fourth lawmaker is Rep. Laurie Pohutsky (D-Livonia), who is married to Nathan Triplett, director of public policy and governmental relations at the State Bar of Michigan.

Asked what steps she takes to make sure there are no conflicts of interest in voting on issues her spouse is working on, she said, “ I carefully consider and adhere to the requirements set forth in Rule 74 of the House rules and Sec. 522 of Mason’s Manual for every issue that comes before a committee on which I serve, or on the floor, as should every member of the House.”

Monitoring this issue as the new MCFN executive director is Neil Thanedar, who concurred that sunshine on potential conflicts of interest can prevent issues from arising . . . but only if people are paying attention.

“The public should be paying attention to it, especially if it's their legislator,” he said.

(Editor's Note: In researching this story, MIRS found that a fifth lawmaker, Rep. John Fitzgerald (D-Wyoming), had marked that he was married to a lobbyist, but when asked about it, he said that the submission was made in error and that he will be filing a corrected personal disclosure to reflect that.)